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Once saved always saved - ‘No True Scotsman’ Fallacy
I've noted on this forum some arguing from the position of 'once saved always saved'.
They posit this against those that claim to have once been believers, but are no longer.
The argument runs thusly:
As nobody that is truly saved can 'fall away', if you are no longer a believer, then you were never really 'saved'.
This argument is called the ‘No True Scotsman’ Fallacy:
There is an idea that faith is permanent, that once one becomes a Christian one cannot fall away. Apparent counter-examples to this idea, people who appear to have faith but subsequently lose it, are written off using the ‘No True Scotsman’ fallacy: they didn’t really have faith, they weren’t true Christians. The claim that faith cannot be lost is thus preserved from refutation. Given such an approach, this claim is unfalsifiable, there is no possible refutation of it.
I believe that 'true believers' can 'fall away' and the use of the above fallacy is erroneous.
What do you think?
Views: 39
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by 3ri8k332k8cnx on -
The parable of the sower (or parable of the soils) comes to mind. There is a faith that endures for a time but then withers or is chocked out and a faith that endures to the end and produces a bountiful harvest.
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Permalink Reply by Dung that was Flung. on
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Yep, that's the one I've heard iggy, although our Calvinist friends wiill no doubt tell us that people like this wre never saved in the first place.
How do the once saved always saved faternity explain things when Christians commit crimes like this:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-12618874
and before they say these people were never really saved, these crimes all centred around several evangelical churches in North Antrim.
The pastors of the churches involved certainly didn't regard the defendants as not being saved.
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Permalink Reply by 3ri8k332k8cnx on
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Good to see you again Jack.
Be at peace.
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Permalink Reply by Ploughboy on -
Stuart
I suggest you read John 17. Add to that the Good Shepherd in John 10. If Jesus cannot bring His people into the Kingdom, and keep them there, He isn't much of a God.
Martin
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Permalink Reply by Ploughboy on
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Stuart
I think that's a license to sin Martin...
And Paul was aware of that danger:
“For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous. Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.” (Romans 5:19-6:4 NKJV)
If we sin deliberately, knowing that we are saved, then what does that say about how we view Christ's sacrifice? Yes, Christians will sin, but God does not allow them to continue in sin, the shepherd brings them back - and that may well not be a pleasant experience.
Martin
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Permalink Reply by Stuart on -
As a person with Calvinist leanings I know that you would think along these lines and I am sympathetic.
The problem comes with someone like Judas and what we end up saying is that he wasn't really one of the disciples and erring on the side of the fallacy.
Now, we know Paul says something like this, namely, they weren't one of us, but that is to focus on one side of his teachings alone.
Paul also expresses salvation in terms of an ongoing process and talks of 'fixing our eyes', 'running the race', 'working out our salvation', 'not having yet attained' etc and many other such expressions that would indicate that salvation has an element that is dependent on us.
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Permalink Reply by Ploughboy on
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Stuart
The problem comes with someone like Judas and what we end up saying is that he wasn't really one of the disciples and erring on the side of the fallacy.
What does Jesus say about Judas?
“"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.” (John 17:12 NKJV)
I think that is pretty conclusive.
Now, we know Paul says something like this, namely, they weren't one of us, but that is to focus on one side of his teachings alone.
Isn't it an aspect of Christian teaching?
“"Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. "Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ "And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’” (Matthew 7:21-23 NKJV)
Paul also expresses salvation in terms of an ongoing process and talks of 'fixing our eyes', 'running the race', 'working out our salvation', 'not having yet attained' etc and many other such expressions that would indicate that salvation has an element that is dependent on us.
I think Ephesians 2 is relevant here:
“But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in [His] kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; [it is] the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.” (Ephesians 2:4-10 NKJV)
Our continuing walk is the good works that God has prepared for us. Our sins are already paid for by Christ but we must grow more like Him.
Martin
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Permalink Reply by 3ri8k332k8cnx on
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It's a wonderful parable. But have you noticed Jack that the son does not come back because he feels repentant for his life, but rather because he has run out of money and is starving. His motives for returning to the father are not exactly 100% pure - he wants to be fed as his father's servants are fed. Yet the father welcomes him back - before the son has even had a chance to utter his sorrow. There is a complete 'amnesty' here with the son not actually needing to say sorry (or even feel sorry) for everything he has done before the father is rushing out to welcome him back. True repentance, we expect, will come in time as the son receives the Father's welcome and love. The son can repent in time because he has already been forgiven and welcomed home. Now that is Amazing Grace!
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Permalink Reply by Midlander on -
Reply by Jack T
Its just that your ignorance carries all of her trade marks imo - lol - imo lol imo lol imo lol etc etc etc
Well, she has left Premier now, or at least she says she has. Let us keep her in prayer that The Lord will convict her of her sin and bring her to repentance so that we can rejoice together with her salvonic restoration and healing.
David
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