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Is God the AUTHOR of EVIL?
We field many challenges to the Christian faith at iLoveAtheists.com.
One challenge in particular keeps surfacing in one form or fashion:
"Your all-powerful God created the devil and evil - simply to set up "the fall." He did this KNOWING that most souls would ultimately suffer eternal punishment. You call this a good God? I call it evil."
I think this is actually a very valid question for those interested in a serious answer. Today I took my best shot at providing my personal view. Below is the answer just added to our site -- I wanted to share with my friends here as well. You are welcome to read, agree, contemplate, dismiss, challenge or perhaps even enter into the exchange (explained below).
Here goes the attempt:
It is true that God is all-powerful [Matthew 19:26]. It is true that God created ALL [Nehemiah 9:6]. It is true that God created whom we now refer to as Lucifer [Ezekiel 28:11-15]. It is true that Lucifer fell from God's grace [Isaiah 14:12-14]. It is true that God knew Lucifer would fall [1 John 3:20]. It is true that most will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven [Matthew 7:14]. It is true that God is all-good [Mark 10:18].
It does not follow, however, that God created evil, and is evil. There is no evil that dwells within God; it is contrary to His perfect holy nature [Psalm 5:4]. God is too pure to even look upon evil [Hab. 1:13].
God made the devil - not as the devil, but as Lucifer: the most beautiful, powerful, grand angelic being in Heaven. He was created by God to serve at His throne. The name Lucifer means "morning star." God created Lucifer to serve mankind by bringing light and truth to the world.
Lucifer was created perfect in all his ways, including his free agency, until he considered himself God's peer or better. In his holier-than-thou original pride, Lucifer tried to exalt himself above God, willfully sinning against his Creator. Instead of being the "light bearer," he chose to become "Satan" which means "adversary" – the enemy of God. His self-appointed purpose is to oppose God, to bring confusion and destruction to mankind and to thwart God’s plan.
Yes, God created an angel who was good, knowing that the angel would fall and rebel. From the beginning, God has provided every being with free will - the choice to exchange 'Thy' will for 'my' will. Lucifer and a third of the Heavenly angels chose the latter.
Thus the drama began. Lucifer started it; Adam and Eve continued it; you and I inherited it; Jesus Christ cured it; God will finish it.
Remarkably, you and I are active participants receiving an eternal vote. Contemplate the next sentence fully. "If you weren’t permitted to reject God, following Him would hold no meaning."
So what is God's plan? To protect those who vote 'Thy' will from a future tainted by evil. As a result, eternal salvation will be the never-ending continued discovery of God the Father's glory, power, creativity, goodness, and love...by the power of God the Holy Spirit through God the Son Jesus Christ. The Gospel in 10 Words - We’re saved from God by God through God for God.
No, God did not create evil. He created a universal existence giving potential to evil through free choice and rebellion. Lucifer's pride led the way. A hole does not exist until you remove the good soil; evil does not exist until you remove the goodness of God's glory. The Good News is that God provided The Filler on the Cross in order for that Cross-shaped hole in your heart may be filled forever [John 3:16-17].
God created this cosmos to serve as an arena in which evil and suffering can be rooted out, finally and eternally – while simultaneously maintaining the human capacity to exercise free will and, thus, to experience and express love.
I would like to direct your attention one of the most sweeping and most loved promises in all the Bible, Romans 8:28:
"And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose."
Perhaps more than any other promise in the Bible, this verse has helped people trust God through experiences that seemed utterly pointless and painful and evil. People have held fast to the "all things" and believed the Word of God – this too, this terrible thing, this seemingly pointless thing, will turn out for "my good." God's math.
So no, God is not the author of evil. However, He has ordained to permit evil to occur; it is within His Sovereign will to allow it to exist so that He can eradicate it forever, eternally. There is life after death. We were all created by God as eternal beings. Your eternal forwarding address is willfully determined by 'my' or 'Thy'.
Those who choose 'my' in this life will battle evil eternally, absent all God's goodness.
Those who choose 'Thy' in this life will rejoice in God's goodness eternally, absent all evil.
Dare I say, God's goodness today is radically undervalued, and evil's eradication tomorrow is way undercontemplated.
So what's the cost of evil? It cost Jesus everything on the Cross. In Christ, there are no addendums. There was no bailout.
Those who accept His payment in full by freely accepting His Divine mercy - by acknowledging His life, sacrifice, death, burial and resurrection as real - are forgiven. Jesus exchanges all His goodness for all your badness. It is the ultimate unfair trading practice.
But God the Father never said it would be fair...to His Son.
The most important third question ever asked in the history of humanity was by Jesus to His Apostle Peter, "Lovest thou Me?" [John 21:15-17] It is the single question you cannot avoid. We cannot avoid.
Christianity is not a hypothesis, it is not a debate, it is a marriage proposal.
Say, "I do!"
My heartfelt prayer? That you willingly choose 'Thy'. That you invite Christ alone to help Himself to your life. That Christ alone becomes your perpetual novelty.
GOD'S MATH
Lucifer started it with 'I' calculate;
Adam and Eve bought into the math;
You and I tithe as Narcissistians;
Jesus Christ paid our debts in full;
God will soon close the books.
You do not want to be on the wrong side of the Cross when He does.
If you doubt, don't.
Self-sufficient pride is entirely and eternally overrated.
In Christ – sign me:
Grateful forgiven sinner,
Todd Pitner
"And you shall seek Me and you shall find Me, if you seek for Me with all your heart" [Jeremiah 29:12-14]
One challenge in particular keeps surfacing in one form or fashion:
"Your all-powerful God created the devil and evil - simply to set up "the fall." He did this KNOWING that most souls would ultimately suffer eternal punishment. You call this a good God? I call it evil."
I think this is actually a very valid question for those interested in a serious answer. Today I took my best shot at providing my personal view. Below is the answer just added to our site -- I wanted to share with my friends here as well. You are welcome to read, agree, contemplate, dismiss, challenge or perhaps even enter into the exchange (explained below).
Here goes the attempt:
It is true that God is all-powerful [Matthew 19:26]. It is true that God created ALL [Nehemiah 9:6]. It is true that God created whom we now refer to as Lucifer [Ezekiel 28:11-15]. It is true that Lucifer fell from God's grace [Isaiah 14:12-14]. It is true that God knew Lucifer would fall [1 John 3:20]. It is true that most will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven [Matthew 7:14]. It is true that God is all-good [Mark 10:18].
It does not follow, however, that God created evil, and is evil. There is no evil that dwells within God; it is contrary to His perfect holy nature [Psalm 5:4]. God is too pure to even look upon evil [Hab. 1:13].
God made the devil - not as the devil, but as Lucifer: the most beautiful, powerful, grand angelic being in Heaven. He was created by God to serve at His throne. The name Lucifer means "morning star." God created Lucifer to serve mankind by bringing light and truth to the world.
Lucifer was created perfect in all his ways, including his free agency, until he considered himself God's peer or better. In his holier-than-thou original pride, Lucifer tried to exalt himself above God, willfully sinning against his Creator. Instead of being the "light bearer," he chose to become "Satan" which means "adversary" – the enemy of God. His self-appointed purpose is to oppose God, to bring confusion and destruction to mankind and to thwart God’s plan.
Yes, God created an angel who was good, knowing that the angel would fall and rebel. From the beginning, God has provided every being with free will - the choice to exchange 'Thy' will for 'my' will. Lucifer and a third of the Heavenly angels chose the latter.
Thus the drama began. Lucifer started it; Adam and Eve continued it; you and I inherited it; Jesus Christ cured it; God will finish it.
Remarkably, you and I are active participants receiving an eternal vote. Contemplate the next sentence fully. "If you weren’t permitted to reject God, following Him would hold no meaning."
So what is God's plan? To protect those who vote 'Thy' will from a future tainted by evil. As a result, eternal salvation will be the never-ending continued discovery of God the Father's glory, power, creativity, goodness, and love...by the power of God the Holy Spirit through God the Son Jesus Christ. The Gospel in 10 Words - We’re saved from God by God through God for God.
No, God did not create evil. He created a universal existence giving potential to evil through free choice and rebellion. Lucifer's pride led the way. A hole does not exist until you remove the good soil; evil does not exist until you remove the goodness of God's glory. The Good News is that God provided The Filler on the Cross in order for that Cross-shaped hole in your heart may be filled forever [John 3:16-17].
God created this cosmos to serve as an arena in which evil and suffering can be rooted out, finally and eternally – while simultaneously maintaining the human capacity to exercise free will and, thus, to experience and express love.
I would like to direct your attention one of the most sweeping and most loved promises in all the Bible, Romans 8:28:
"And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose."
Perhaps more than any other promise in the Bible, this verse has helped people trust God through experiences that seemed utterly pointless and painful and evil. People have held fast to the "all things" and believed the Word of God – this too, this terrible thing, this seemingly pointless thing, will turn out for "my good." God's math.
So no, God is not the author of evil. However, He has ordained to permit evil to occur; it is within His Sovereign will to allow it to exist so that He can eradicate it forever, eternally. There is life after death. We were all created by God as eternal beings. Your eternal forwarding address is willfully determined by 'my' or 'Thy'.
Those who choose 'my' in this life will battle evil eternally, absent all God's goodness.
Those who choose 'Thy' in this life will rejoice in God's goodness eternally, absent all evil.
Dare I say, God's goodness today is radically undervalued, and evil's eradication tomorrow is way undercontemplated.
So what's the cost of evil? It cost Jesus everything on the Cross. In Christ, there are no addendums. There was no bailout.
Those who accept His payment in full by freely accepting His Divine mercy - by acknowledging His life, sacrifice, death, burial and resurrection as real - are forgiven. Jesus exchanges all His goodness for all your badness. It is the ultimate unfair trading practice.
But God the Father never said it would be fair...to His Son.
The most important third question ever asked in the history of humanity was by Jesus to His Apostle Peter, "Lovest thou Me?" [John 21:15-17] It is the single question you cannot avoid. We cannot avoid.
Christianity is not a hypothesis, it is not a debate, it is a marriage proposal.
Say, "I do!"
My heartfelt prayer? That you willingly choose 'Thy'. That you invite Christ alone to help Himself to your life. That Christ alone becomes your perpetual novelty.
GOD'S MATH
Lucifer started it with 'I' calculate;
Adam and Eve bought into the math;
You and I tithe as Narcissistians;
Jesus Christ paid our debts in full;
God will soon close the books.
You do not want to be on the wrong side of the Cross when He does.
If you doubt, don't.
Self-sufficient pride is entirely and eternally overrated.
In Christ – sign me:
Grateful forgiven sinner,
Todd Pitner
"And you shall seek Me and you shall find Me, if you seek for Me with all your heart" [Jeremiah 29:12-14]
Tags: atheism, eternity, evil, god, jesus, purpose, salvation, satan, sin
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Kevin on -
OK, I may be tired, but I must say that I agree with everything you have written.
One further "argument" I like, but it is so hard to back up is that the third best gift (or arguably the greatest gift as the others are nothing without it) God gave man after Grace and Mercy is the freedom of free* choice. God could have easily have made us all so we are like any other living thing, instinctively following a set pattern of life, but what would be the point of existence if we were just "robots" on autopilot. We are here to glorify God and revel in His Greatness. Take that away and there is simply no reason for anything to exist.
* Free for our time on Earth anyway. There is only one price that everyone is charged for having the freedom to choose in life - and that is death. "Luckily" for some of us someone has already been and paid the fee.
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Permalink Reply by Todd Pitner on -
Lucky indeed, Kevin!
Now, go get some sleep.
I will too.
Night!
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Permalink Reply by JASON FROM BORONIA on -
Satan isthe aurther of all Evil & God Hates Evil.
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Permalink Reply by Todd Pitner on
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I agree, Jason. Evil manifests from any transaction of the will that is counter to God's. Satan is the first to willingly exercise such a transaction. The net result was...well...you know the story.
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Permalink Reply by Todd Pitner on
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Thank you, Andy. Always appreciate your positive encouragement.
Todd
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Permalink Reply by Kirby J. Killman on
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That is quite a sweeping essay, Todd. I agree with it wholeheartedly.
Look at what monumental efforts man puts into refining all of earth's resources to make them more efficient, useful, beautiful, and so on - all the stuff we bring into our lives. How do we make the raw stuff of earth of greater value? Mountainous quantities of resources, effort, time, and money go into bringing out the full value of everything we put into our lives. Fortunes are paid out for those found to have the highest value and - PURITY.
Would God choose to put less effort into creating that which he vows to spend eternity and his infinite love on? If people think that, then they may as well settle for low grade stuff for themselves and the loved ones in their own lives - right? Or, do we always tend towards aiming for the highest and best quality possible?
Would we have any respect for a God who wanted less in us, in the very creatures he creates? The sifting process is expensive as are all of ours. There is much cost and sacrifice, but God made far and away the greatest. Some things about God are hard to grasp, but then who said our "grasping" was the ultimate in deciding who should rule His creation? We give little thought to God's sacrifices, the biggest being the first time in eons of time that the triune God suffered seperation from the intense, fathomless and infinite love that the triune god always had right up front in all its greatest intensity. Think about that and the love and attachment we all have for the first things in our life that we have grasped the term "love" for. How great was the agony for even a moment we spent apart from that first loved one we ever fell in love with? Multiply that "pain" infinitely. When you can grasp the full scope of that infinitely painful seperation for God, you might have the faintest grasp of what it cost him. But realistically how close can any of us come to that? The pain and agony he suffered bodily, was terrible beyond comprehension, but he shrugged that off with a flick of his attention span.
His "attention" was focused that whole time on every single human born or to be born and the intense love he had for them. Paying their cost to choose eternal life with him was paramount in his span of awareness. The choice to opt out was a gift for those who choose it. They may spend it as they wish, but don't whine come judgment day. He infinitely focused on that. Physical pain was probably an annoyance.
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Permalink Reply by Todd Pitner on
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LOVED reading your reply, Kirby. Thank you for the additional insight!
I especially loved: The choice to opt out was a gift for those who choose it. They may spend it as they wish, but don't whine come judgment day.
"They may spend it as they wish..."
Brilliantly presented!
Todd
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Permalink Reply by Lee on -
Hi Todd,
We have been down this road before - so remind me, how did you describe a person who has the power to stop suffering with little effort or cost to themselves, but choses to allow the suffering of another to continue?
I cannot remember - surely it was NOT that the person was a nice and loving person, but rather this person was scum for not trying to stop it right?
I mean, if you saw two young boys torturing a puppy on your street - you would surely try to stop the suffering of the puppy? You might not know why you want to do this, but you would try? Even if it was merely to phone the police - you would at least try to stop the suffering. Right?
Now, since we have been down this path before you know my next question.
So remind me here please your reply?
Try to answer the question directly and not avoid it by missing the point.
I have not asked who caused the suffering, why the suffering is happening, what is suffering, how can suffering be stopped etc... just the simple question of how YOU would describe such a person.
Now I wait for your reply, and I am betting on how it might go :-)
Lee
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Permalink Reply by Richard Morgan on -
Lee : "Try to answer the question directly and not avoid it by missing the point."
That sounds, oh, so reasonable, doesn't it?
Who could argue with or complain about that? And yet it comes right out of the dirty tricks compartment. It is there to leave the impression : if this guy doesn't answer my question exactly as I framed it, then he is avoiding the question because he can't answer it decently.
So while Todd is still asleep in North Carolina, I shall fill the question out a little to make the intent clearer.
"Todd, forget that you believe in God. Forget that God can not be reasonably compared to a human being. In order to answer my question, pretend that God is just a person, like you or me, OK? Yes, I know that when you ask me to read the Gospel of John and pretend that it's true, I refuse to do so, but that's because I am a reasonable man. But this is dfferent. So please, be a good chap, mentally deny your idea of God, even if it is the very foundation of your life, and just answer the question.
If God were just an ordinary person, but who possessed the miraculous power to prevent all suffering (no, don't interrupt, I'm asking the questions) if God were an ordinary person with just a couple of extraordinary powers, and he allowed suffering to continue, how would you describe such a person?
Oh, and I have another question in the same category. Don't beat around the bush, just answer 'yes' or 'no' ; do you still beat your wife?
No, no, no 'ifs' or 'buts' to avoid the question, do you still beat your wife 'yes' or 'no'?
You can't answer? Well, I know what I deduce from your willful silence.
And my hypothetical God person? No answer either?
Well I rest my case. You are clearly a highly immoral, wife-beating piece of scum."
Do you see the problem, Lee?
Your question, far from being simlpe, direct and reasonable, is so loaded that it just fell through the floor.
My turn to ask you : since you feel entitled to and justified in asking your sort of question, who would you have a problem with doing what Todd has often invited you to do?
Or why didn't you just ask him directly, "Answer by "yes" or "yes" - are you deluded?"
Lee - do you still beat your wife - 'yes' or 'no'?
Now I wait for your reply, and I am betting on how it might go :-(
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Permalink Reply by Lee on
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Thank you Richard, you answered my question better than you probably wanted to.
You seem to agree that if you see two children torturing a puppy it would be inhumane not to try and do something to stop the suffering. Especially if it requires little effort or risk to do so.
You rightly saw where I was leading (I provided a HUGE hint) and jumped to the “My God is different and has different rules” defense straight off.
I asked how Todd (or anyone really) would classify a person who, when seeing two children torturing a puppy did nothing – your answer highlights very clearly you have conflicts between this analogy and the God you believe in.
Why this does not cause you concerns “God alone knows” (can I use that phrase as an atheist?)
Maybe you can please explain how my analogy fails – maybe this is where the issue rests.
I think you are saying that I am creating a false analogy – in one instance we humans can state that a person is scum for not acting, the other instance, well you say your God is different so please explain why I cannot place the same values and describe such a being?
After all, don’t many (most?) Christians say we are to get our moral understanding from God? So surely the same values apply? If not, we don’t get our moral understanding from God and it is one rule for one, and one rule for another. Is that morally right?
I am surprised you jumped on the “do you still beat your wife” defense since it isn’t in the same category in my opinion – where either yes or no implies a conviction that at least at some point in time give a beating to their wife.
True, if Todd agreed that if a person did nothing to help the suffering puppy in my example they were ‘not a nice person’ and IF perhaps Todd wanted to be consistent this might have implications on the type of God Todd should believe in.
However, this isn’t a trap from me… it is just being consistent. As you have shown, the Christians doesn’t need to do this.
There are a million and one excuses they could make up – as you just highlighted.
Anyway, once again – thank you for answering the question as I thought Todd would.
It saved me the wait and brought the smile early to my face.
I love it when the Christian shows their inconsistency.
Of course, I might still be wrong and my analogy false – I look forward to you or Todd addressing my points above.
Notice, it is not a yes or no address where tails you lose and heads I win.
(That is Christian logic, not mine – don’t believe me, just answer how a successful outcome from prayer might be judged. God wins every time with the Christian logic. Or perhaps, more on topic, ask what act God could do that would be classified as morally wrong. Again, God is right every time with Christian Logic.)
Take care
Lee
PS
Now I wait for your reply, and I am betting on how it might go
I thought I wrote that, not you? And I was right... winner everytime. Christians do not disappoint some times:-)
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Permalink Reply by Richard Morgan on
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Lee - "Of course, I might still be wrong and my analogy false"
You are.
It is.
How you can admit this possibility, yet still persist in the same line of reasoning is quite beyond me.
It's alost as if you're saying, "OK I know I'm asking a fallacious question, but I'm going to ask it anyway. So there."
I think you're probably a nice guy, but honestly, you show all the intellectual suppleness of a sheet of glass, sometimes.
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