Going...DOWN?

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Lee on November 2, 2009 at 7:22am

Hi Todd,

No, you're just (currently) lost. We're working on you, though.

Fair enough – at least you do not feel I am working for the devil, some do though.

Don’t ask me… it must be the beard

RE: What type of God would allow Hell?

What type of society would allow for prisons?

Answer the question please – this is avoiding it. What are you finding so difficult with my question? Ask this question to yourself, think honestly about it… Hell, and God allowing it, goes against your own personal morals of what is right.

You are more moral than the God you believe in…. scary isn’t it? :-)

To answer your question though – do you know what there was BEFORE prisons?

In the Western world it was a good hanging, drowning, burning, boiling and many more ‘colourful’ methods to cause death or pain (look up trial by ordeal).

So please read up on your history… prisons may not be perfect, but they are better than many alternatives tried in the past.

Babies aren't born committing crimes, right?

Nope… but what has this got to do with my question?

Wasn’t it Christianity that taught for nearly 2,000 years that unchristened babies go straight to Hell?

Yes… I think it was. Of course, I do not think they were right about this – but it did destroy many a mother I suspect.

Now if you want a discussion on abortion or whatever your point is – no problem, just set out your question…. But first, answer mine and stop avoiding it.

It seems to be a rather important question that you have not considered before.

Well, God is perfectly just.

Can I quote you on this?

Quick question, maybe I do not have the same definitions as you.

Does God have mercy?

If God was ‘just’ He ‘punishes’ to fit the crime - right – perfectly you say.

How then can God show mercy – which is punishing less than He should?

Maybe God doesn’t have mercy, you never said He did. Neither have you said God is all-God.

However, this is because you have not been able to answer what type of God it is you DO believe in.

Funny really.

Man sinned.

Prove it.

Happy to discuss with you the silliness of the Gen2 story – but first tell me what you think this story is really about. (And AFTER you answer the original question of mine)

You're either with Jesus or against Him

Erm… I do not believe in Him – so neither :-)

Lee, you don't believe in Him.

BINGO – which in your book means I am going to Hell.

Is that a good act for your God to allow?

If He truly exists, you have to admit fully that He's given you plenty of chances to come to know His truth.

No, I do not. I still have not been shown any reason, logic or evidence to think the God of the Bible is true.

I can however provide valid objections to all the arguments that have been presented to me so far.

Bit of a problem that – it does not have to be this way though.

It's not like He's not going above and beyond the call of get your attention.

“Hello, God… If you are there… just show me a sign, anything that isn’t open to chance and the known physical laws. Show me something that breaks what I currently understand about the universe… maybe show me tonight, as viewed from Earth, the “far side of the Moon”, it has been tidally locked for millions of years – I am sure a powerful and loving God would do this little thing – since then you will have 6 billion new believers and once (according to your Bible) you stopped both the Earth, Sun and Moon so a little tribe could win a little battle – so this book tells me you have the power, and you use to do such things all the time. Here waiting for you Buddy. Thanks Lee”


RE: Would you call a person who created a "room of torture" a good or a bad person?

Would you call a prison warden a good or bad person?

Can you first answer the question? What is so difficult about the question that you feel you need to avoid it so?

To try and answer yours (notice how I try and do that) - firstly, what prison guard? You have changed the question on me (a strawman?)

Secondly, assuming there was a prison guard – did this guard try to stop the torture the best he could? Did he try to minimise or maximise the torture?

I cannot judge with the information given, however we do have a historical reference to use when more information comes in. Just think of the Nazi prison guards of WWII.

RE: If I tortured puppies, would you think of me as good?

No, I'd think you were sick in the head.

I rest my case – now you just have to apply your logic and morals consistently.

Do babies go to Hell BTW? Will they be tortured?

RE: If I knew my neighbour tortured his young children and did nothing, would you think of me as good?

Nope.

Excellent – your morals are like my own so far.

Now then, about this God character you believe in that allows torture in Hell…. Do you think of Him as good?

What is wrong with my analogy? If my analogy is correct, you should also think God as a bad person. So, over to you…

No, I didn't. Not yet. I'll try to get to it this week.

Take your time – I only mention it since I thought you meant be interested in my views of Pascal’s Wager.

Lee

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Permalink Reply by Richard Morgan on November 2, 2009 at 7:50am

Lee:
RE: What type of God would allow Hell?

What type of society would allow for prisons?

Answer the question please – this is avoiding it. What are you finding so difficult with my question?

LOL!
I never thought I'd see Lee (Founder/President of the Anti-Strawman League) indulge in such silliness.
When you asked that "type" of question, it was inevitable you were going to get that "type" of response.

Bless you, Lee. At least you gave me a good chuckle to start the day with.
Priceless.

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Permalink Reply by Lee on November 3, 2009 at 10:30am

Hi Richard,

I never thought I'd see Lee (Founder/President of the Anti-Strawman League) indulge in such silliness.

I know I like to have a bit of fun - but I do not see the silliness in my questioning.

Care you explain?

When you asked that "type" of question, it was inevitable you were going to get that "type" of response.

You mean that a Christian, when asked, is able to say that a prison guard who tortures people is "a bad person".

And that if a man tortures puppies that person is "bad".

Yet when I ask the question if a God allowed Hell in which babies are tortured (or so many Christians believe) the Christian is unable to answer the question consistently?

(A bit of a hint…. If torture is bad in this world, then what makes it good when God does it? I fail to see… so the Christian should, if being consistent and honest, say that a God that allows Hell is bad.)

Plain and simple…. Yet for some reason the Christian is unable to do that.

Can you explain this?

Have you been able to square this circle – then if so, please help me out?

Lee

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Permalink Reply by Richard Morgan on November 3, 2009 at 10:47am

Lee - OK. I made the error of imagining that you had spent years steeped in linguistic analysis like me, but that was my mistake which led you to misinterpret my gentle jibe.
There is a serious problem with this question (linguistically) :
What type of God would allow Hell? when addressed to a Christian.
For a start, we can't imagine a multiplicity of "types" of gods: there is One God.
There are many types of human beings - for example you and I to name but three.
But when you ask a Christian to evaluate God in human terms (the anthropomorpholgical error) by comparing Him with other types of Gods, you can understand that your question makes no sense.
It's as "silly" as my asking you "What kind of Lee are you?" I don't imagine there are many versions of you wandering around Oz-land.
Maybe you're going to be tempted to accuse me of "pedantry" at this point. Feel free. Go ahead. Lots of other people have done so when I have tried to pin them down to the weight and significance of their own words.

So, maybe you'd like to rephrase the question : "What type of God would allow Hell?" so that it would make sense to a Christian (or Jew or Muslim).

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Permalink Reply by Todd Pitner on November 2, 2009 at 3:28pm

Take a deep breath already, Lee.

I'll answer your question:

What type of God would allow Hell?

ANSWER: The God of the Bible.

Lee, you don't believe in Him.

BINGO – which in your book means I am going to Hell.

That is correct.

Do babies go to Hell BTW? Will they be tortured?

I don't know. I'm sure it's case-by-case. You fail to consider that for God, yesterday, today and tomorrow are all 'right now'. If they do, then God must have a very good reason for allowing it.

Excellent – your morals are like my own so far.

I've never denied you have morals. We all do. God is the Author of morality, with or without your acknowledgment.

Yes, I absolutely believe God is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent. He's all-good. ALL good. Purpose-driven withdrawal of God is where you'll find the entrance of evil (he does allow for it, absolutely). It's called The Fall. Life on this planet was created for one reason, and one reason only...to eradicate evil once and for all eternally (pride STARTED in heaven, BTW...His name was Lucifer...we call him Satan today).

Regarding other points in your posts, all I can say is 'bad exegesis makes for good atheism', Lee.

Lee, you seem like a really good guy...you really do. Like it or not, you're going to hell if you hold to your self-sufficiency...worse still, you're pulling your own children down with you by the example you lead.

You've picked the wrong fight.

One Man's opinion, anyway.

The God-Man. Jesus. Your Creator.

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Permalink Reply by Jonathan on November 2, 2009 at 3:29pm

"If they do, then God must have a very good reason for allowing it."

Such as? I appreciate you don't know for sure. But speculate.

" Life on this planet was created for one reason, and one reason only...to eradicate evil once and for all eternally"

Why didn't God metaphorically snap his fingers?

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Permalink Reply by Todd Pitner on November 2, 2009 at 3:32pm

To eradicate evil once and for all, eternally. (this is the reason)

I don't know, but He must have a good reason for it.

Ask Him on your Judgment Day, Jonathan. Not my fight.

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Permalink Reply by Jonathan on November 2, 2009 at 3:35pm

So, if babies go to hell and are tortured for all eternity for being born, then it is to eradicate evil once and for all, eternally.

Fascinating.

No, wait. Not fascinating.

Disgusting.

Permalink Reply by Todd Pitner on November 2, 2009 at 3:49pm

Ah, Jonathan...the distinguishing wasteland of Biblical ignorance.

You'd do well to study up on the Amalekites. Babies become big boys and girls, don't they? You cherry-picketh what you wanteth to justifieth your lifesyleth. It's called suppression.

Anyone who really cares to do so can study and learn the Bible with relative ease.

A few hours less each week before YouTube or even this forum applied to Biblical study would bear much fruit in this regard. Fortunately, the cure for your ignorance is available; it is the Bible itself. It is only your reluctance to take that sweet medicine which has caused the problem.

This is the disease we call atheism.

Purpose-Driven Ignorance.

Permalink Reply by Richard Morgan on November 2, 2009 at 3:49pm

Jonathan - I take it, then, that you are a firm anti-abortionist?

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Jonathan on November 2, 2009 at 3:53pm

What's abortion got to do with it, Richard? Any comment on Todd's justification of the eternal torture of babies?

Permalink Reply by Richard Morgan on November 2, 2009 at 3:59pm

Joanthan - I presume you msut be morally opposed to killing babies in the womb for having committed the crime of not being born.
No?

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