Difficulties with Evolution - No.1: Bees

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Permalink Reply by Dwight Van Mann on January 23, 2010 at 6:36pm

I would like to suggest that even if someone gave you a satisfying answer to that, it might not help you move away from your agnosticism about the theory

No, I think it might - surely it's worth a try? I don't think the study of bees is frontier science and this must be a fascinating subject for biological scientists.

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Permalink Reply by Old Peculier on January 28, 2010 at 11:05am

The guy's asking for info, and has indicated that he's willing to be persuaded. How about responding in kind, instead of being negative and aggressive?

Re. bee dancing - I'm sure I read something about it with respect to evolution recentl;y. I'll see if I can find the reference.

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Permalink Reply by PhilipH on January 23, 2010 at 5:27pm

I'm sure an evolutionary biologist could think up a solution to this. For example it could have started with bees observing the direction of takeoff and landing of other bees, and learning to copy them. Later because the bees in a hive are all genetically identical and it pays in an evolutionary sense for them to help one another in order to ensure their genes are passed on to future generations, the showing of direction of food by one bee to another could have caught on. Over time the dance could have become more and more sophisticated with a net advantage to the whole hive.

But I'm only speculating. The bees will have left no record of how the dance evolved - it's hardly going to leave fossils, so we'll just have to guess.

If you are trying to use these gaps in our knowledge to prove the existence of God I think you are profoundly mistaken. It's a game that can be played indefinitely, each time the evolutionary biologists solve something (like how the eye evolved) you just move on to the next puzzle. It proves nothing. I say this as a believer in God and a Christian, so I don't have an atheist ax to grind. It seems to me that if you are using this to look for proof of God, you're pointlessly looking for a sign when you have everything you need already, in the Bible and in the lives of the Saints, as well as the way Christianity and God has touched the lives of many people today.

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Permalink Reply by Jew-Man-J on January 23, 2010 at 5:51pm

If you are trying to use these gaps in our knowledge to prove the existence of God I think you are profoundly mistaken. It's a game that can be played indefinitely, each time the evolutionary biologists solve something (like how the eye evolved) you just move on to the next puzzle.

Excellent point, it's quite embarrassing that Christians (I have noted) try and fill every crack in understanding with a polyfilla/"god did it".

It seems to me that if you are using this to look for proof of God, you're pointlessly looking for a sign when you have everything you need already, in the Bible and in the lives of the Saints, as well as the way Christianity and God has touched the lives of many people today.

How very true, and when one dumps the book......what happens to this particular god. The exact same as all the other gods that are not promoted in a massive way.

No Bible, no characters associated with it......including the character known as "god".

JMJ

[No big loss really give humans of today must be able to create a far greater god than that one, or any of the other ones associated with ancients]

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Permalink Reply by Dwight Van Mann on January 23, 2010 at 6:42pm

"But I'm only speculating. The bees will have left no record of how the dance evolved - it's hardly going to leave fossils, so we'll just have to guess".

If I were a scientist I would not ge happy with that position.

"If you are trying to use these gaps in our knowledge to prove the existence of God I think you are profoundly mistaken".
No, I would just like convincing answers to aspects of Darwinian evolution that give me serious doubt that it is as infallible as we are led to believe.

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Permalink Reply by Jew-Man-J on January 23, 2010 at 7:42pm

No, I would just like convincing answers to aspects of Darwinian evolution that give me serious doubt that it is as infallible as we are led to believe.

I sniff a lie, for if that were the truth why are you posting on a Christian web site, which is more to do with belief structure that scientific research........if you seek truth why not post to people who have studied and are expert in evolutionary detail about Bees?

I am not saying an immediate answer will be forth coming, but there is greater chance of an educated reply than here. (no offence to all who post here)

JMJ

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Permalink Reply by Dwight Van Mann on January 23, 2010 at 7:53pm

"why are you posting on a Christian web site, which is more to do with belief structure that scientific research?"

I am joining the many others who are asking questions about evolution. The Unbelievable Forum is meant for discussion of such topics. I am an avid listener to the Unbelievable podacsts and I'm sure there are plenty of other listeners who would like to respond to my questions or refer me to authoritative sources. Are there no atheists on the RD website discussing religion?

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Permalink Reply by Jew-Man-J on January 23, 2010 at 8:20pm

I am joining the many others who are asking questions about evolution.

Oh just a wee enquiry.

Then why post this...........This is a good opportunity for atheists to influence a Christian to move from a position of agnosticism about the supremacy of evolutionary theory to a place where they would like us all to be

Did it ever cross your mind that some of the greatest evolutionary scientists are god worshippers or were god worshippers or some other form of god worship(theism to deism maybe).....it's not a thing that is the exclusive property of nontheists or Buddhists(atheists).

Forgive me if I have pinned you down in some way, I just know if I wished to know about a problem with a car I would not hang about a stable. And as noted your opener was designed for and to atheists to convert a Christian who has a problem about evolution because of 'Bee Bop Boogy' ?[

Why atheists(buddhists) or nontheists to be more accurate? Why not fellow god worshippers who are leading scientists within that field. Why not challenge them to convert you?

Better still search the web for leading scientists in that field if your problem is genuine


JMJ

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Permalink Reply by Dwight Van Mann on January 23, 2010 at 8:58pm

Sorry for upsetting you....I just thought someone might be able to help by having the answer at their fingertips. I didn't know I wasn't allowed to ask questions about evolution on this forum - I'm sure I've seen others doing this.

BTW, what's a nontheist as opposed to an atheist? And more baffling, a buddhist (atheist)?

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Permalink Reply by Jew-Man-J on January 23, 2010 at 9:47pm

Sorry for upsetting you....I just thought someone might be able to help by having the answer at their fingertips.

God knows I knew you would cripple my gut, I pushed you into a corner you should never have been pushed into....it's not for you to apologise. It is for I to apologise to you.

Sorry.

BTW, what's a nontheist as opposed to an atheist? And more baffling, a buddhist (atheist)?

Well Buddhist are generally viewed as atheist, and others branded "atheist" can be just as superstitious as theists(astrology etc). I stated nontheist to proclaim non association with any form of superstition etc.

All the Best

JMJ

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Permalink Reply by Dwight Van Mann on January 23, 2010 at 10:33pm

Mmm....sounds a tad paranoic to me! I can't find non-theism in my big Oxford dictionary but it must surely mean "non-belief in any god". I would say that's an atheist.

I do not recognise any association between superstition and Christianity but atheists like to use the word as it has pejorative connotations.

I'm getting a sair hied! (visual translation: ).

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Permalink Reply by Jew-Man-J on January 23, 2010 at 11:04pm

I do not recognise any association between superstition and Christianity

Well as your wee manual/bible(for the cherry picker) states...."seek and ye shall find".

Same same matey, superstition and virgin birth tales etc etc etc.

I'm getting a sair hied!

Are you smoking weetabix?


JMJ

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